Hey Jason

I'm going to keep this question fairly open ended because I have done a lot of my own research in practice and have come to a few conclusions myself but I'm curious what you would say without my long theoretical outline.

For handstands, what is the Optimal and "boss level" positions for shoulders?

What I mean by this is if I were attain the highest level of shoulder mobility, similar to the splits for shoulders, what would that look like and how does that apply to holding my handstands?

When it comes to holding the handstand, how much internal and external rotation is optimal at the glenohumeral joint and can you describe any way of setting the scapula and upper arm in such a way that creates optimal stability?Example: Do I want maximal external rotation at the GH joint before I elevate the scapula? Do I want maximum GH flexion regardless of IR or ER and then use the Scapula to complete the overhead position?

When developing overhead mobility, do you measure your flexion by seeing how much range you have when the GH joint is in maximum external rotation and when the scapula is depressed and protracted or another way?

How do you set the hand distance and rotation of the lower arm relative to how much shoulder flexion you have?

How do you cue the GH joint + Scapula before kicking up and when balancing?

I have had a lot reflection on this topic and have had varying degrees of confidence around different perspectives and haven't found any resource here ( sorry if it does exist) that describes the relationship of GH rotation, scapula position, hand position in handstands and optimal and maximal development of shoulders in relationship to handstands.

Thanks in advance for your time! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Hi Cam,

Good question - it also prompted me to publish an 'In Focus' resource which takes a look as some of these ideas. I thought it was already up but it had been missed! Review it here: https://www.movemorevrl.com/handstand-alignment-drills/videos/in-focus-handstand-alignment-thoracic-up-or-down

First, I will give the most general & sweeping response. I think we mustn't lose sight of this when the nuances start to present themselves, especially as we begin learning more about a subject. As it was said: “before I learned [the] art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.” We don't want to get caught up in thinking shoulder/scap position is more complex than what it actually is (although it's definitely good to consider).

So, r.e. shoulder-position for HS - PUSH through the floor. However this translates, and it will translate mostly to scapular-elevation, simply PUSH - and remind yourself of it every 2-3". This is the same for every and any HS project, from 2-arm to 1-arm, tuck to straddle, press to HSPU - just PUSH. Rather than thinking too much about scap & GH position, think about RESISTING GRAVITY. Because this is essentially the task. You need to push into the floor, so the floor pushes back (ground-reaction force / GRF) - it will feed back into your structure and this is what will stabilise your shoulders & whatever shape your structure is above that (i.e. whatever the pelvis or legs are doing).

The "boss" position for shoulders = shoulders stacked over the WRISTS, with hips over shoulders in VERTICAL alignment. And you can actually achieve this very well with "closed" shoulders - you just need to extend in the middle-back more (I emphasise this in the linked 'In Focus' resource. There will also be some new super useful HS alignment resources focusing more on this coming soon, along with a trove of new material by this May, the 1yr anniversary of the VRL - keep holding tight my friend!)

The "boss" mobility-level, then, would see a completely STRAIGHT line going from wrists-to-shoulders-to-hips, i.e. no arching in any region of the spine to bring the hips into alignment. In application to handstand, it means EFFICIENCY - you are optimally stacked in a vertical line and you are holding this line with minimal effort (i.e. you don't need to "force" into alignment with muscular effort, because the range is available).

What we must appreciate, then, is that the "open-shoulder" position is NOT simply about shoulder-mobility. Because of the position of the SCAPULAE when in overhead flexion (i.e. they slide down the back of the rib-cage & sit over the thoracic-spine), they will determine the extent of overhead reach. So, it is also THORACIC-EXTENSION which is ultimately a strong limiting factor of & determiner of how truly "boss" your OH shoulder-flexion will be (this is mentioned here in 'Plate-pulsing' which is an OKC context to develop this range, taking scap & thoracic into account: https://www.movemorevrl.com/videos/elevated-plate-pulsing)

R.e. GH joint, I would personally take this out of the vocabulary & concern. It's not that it's not important or not valid - it certainly is - but it's more of a "side-effect". In general, the GH joint will be optimally "set" as long as you are pushing through the floor, as this consistent intention will provide the maximal shoulder-stability required (and, truly, this cue will never change and always be present in every stage of your HS journey). If anything, yes a little intentional external-rotation can provide some extra stability for some in balance, but not on the kick-up (again, here just PUSH overhead). And the range of ER is so small when in HS that it's really just a slight sensation of activation. It becomes much more profound & intentional for shoulder-stablity if you start to deliberately "close" the shoulders, such as in commencing a HSPU - but this is because your orientation is changing toward horizontal, and so it's a different direction of push.

In measuring OH range, I would do so just emphasising elevation, straight elbows, keeping the thumbs together, and the "ribs down" (e.g. for a screening). But remember that really matters is how it is in the applied context (e.g. OKC or CKC - it's arguably more difficult to express OH flexion OCK. In CKC, e.g. inverted forms, you can use gravity & your own intention to "push" the shoulders open & even load that position).

Hands relative to shoulders is mentioned in the 'In Focus' - generally, people with strong shoulder-range limitations might find it more comfortable/stable to have hands slightly more ER (forefinger facing forward) and slightly wider (just outside shoulders). Others may find more natural to have middle finger forward-facing. But, I always encourage people to work toward hands exactly SHOULDER-width (which is much closer than most feel), because it's the most structurally-supported (as with alignment mentioned above, this is simply due to physics).

As mentioned, I don't cue the GH before kicking up. You will be naturally more protracted due to the form (front-folded, innately more horizontal). Just push.

Let me know with any further questions. To recap in brief: forget about GH joint position - this is overridden by intention to simply PUSH through the floor. If curious, try a little ER DURING the HS hold, but it's a very small range & just feels like a little lat activation. The optimal OH range (seen inverted) has shoulders stack over wrists & hips over shoulders with NO spinal-arching, and this position held with little effort. So, this "open shoulder" position is also limited by THORACIC-EXTENSION range. When the range isn't there, however, you can STILL achieve this optimal alignment by extending more through the middle-back.

Hope that helps & all the best for your ongoing journey in inversion my friend!

J